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Interview with Satoshi Kon
Don't call Satoshi Kon just an anime director. If you've ever seen Perfect Blue, Tokyo Godfathers, or Millennium Actress, you know he tends to stay away from the usual anime trappings of science fiction and fantasy. He instead favors human stories, psychological thrillers, and mind-bending parables of modern society. His latest work, released this week on DVD, is the heady and fascinating Paranoia Agent, a 13-episode TV series about a group of almost-unrelated characters whose lives are profoundly affected by a would-be serial killer with a baseball bat named "Little Slugger." We recently got a chance to chat with Satoshi Kon to talk about his latest work and his unique perspective on the world today.--Sean Molloy
Gamestar: How was working on a TV series different than working on your movies? Did you enjoy it more or less? Would you do it again? Satoshi Kon: Fundamentally my main focus in making animation is to have them be interesting. Whether it's in the TV or movie format it really makes no difference. During production, I feel the same sense of purpose, but above all, I enjoyed making both types of work.
Of course everything has its good and bad elements. In comparison to a TV production, movies allow for more schedule and budget flexibility, and a fuller realization of the producers wish for the final product. Also, the quality of the work is much better but the down side is that it takes longer to complete.
One reason why I decided to do Paranoia Agent was because I had many ideas that I'd wanted to express. I also wanted to explore the function of the "TV series," which is impossible to do with a movie. I was aiming for an interesting quality that only TV could provide. I wanted the story to be so riveting that you couldn't wait to see the next episode. I also wanted the 13 episodes to each have their distinct flavor but at the same time collectively tell a story. By having several directors, each directing an episode, I hoped to realize diverseness as well. My aim was for each episode to be a distinct stand-alone piece of work but also be a recognizable part of the Paranoia Agent series.
Because Paranoia Agent was my first TV series, I wasn't used to the shorter time schedules. The communication with the staff managers of each episode didn't go as well as it could have, but overall I think it turned out to be an interesting animation. Using what I've learned through the experience I'd like to make another TV series in the future.
GS: Did any particular real-world event inspire Paranoia Agent? Is "Little Slugger" a reflection of anyone in particular?
SK: There isn't a specific event that it was modeled after per se, but there are cases where outrageous claims are made-up and eventually become actual crimes. When I hear of these on the TV or the Newspaper, I ask myself "Why did they pretend to be the victim?" or "What benefit is there in telling a lie?" I think these types of thoughts are what culminated in the creation of Paranoia Agent.
Again for the Little Slugger character, there was no model I based him off of. In Japan there had been a rash of serial "knock-out burglaries" where people were attacked with a baseball bat and had their money stolen. More recently forms of "drive-by snatchings" by bicycles and scooters have been occurring. These types of incidents help me form new ideas.
GS: Were any of the other characters in the tale -- the toy designer, the reporter -- based on anyone you know?
SK: There are no models for any of them either, but like Little Slugger, they reflect aspects of current trends in the Japanese society. The dubious reporter from episode one is meant as a criticism on today's mass media and its state of sleaziness. The character, completely engrossed in his collection of anime figures, symbolizes the negative aspects of Otaku culture. The story of the grade school kids in episode 2 is not a reflection of the real problem with bullying in schools today, but is a reflection of the adult world in an elementary school setting. I arrived at the female tutor character through an incident in the news that happened several years ago. There had been a woman, who by day worked in the offices of a prestigious company, and by night worked as a prostitute in the red light district. Ultimately she was found murdered, but her death made headlines for a while. I think people were intrigued by her two conflicting lifestyles.
The crooked cop in episode four characterizes Japan's corrupt police force. The Little Slugger copycat in episode five is a comment on Japan's increasing trend of overvaluing children's opinions and how adults are too often seen as the fools. None of the characters are modeled after anyone specific, but crimes, incidents, and trends in society are used to create characters that fit the model.
SK: Although I believe movies and anime can have an effect on violent crimes, I don't think it's the fundamental motivating factor. There are many motives for violence and I can't be absolutely certain, but I believe the root of the problem is an inability is people's inability to control their violent desires.
This year there was a disturbing case of a grade school girl killing a fellow classmate using a paper cutter on school grounds. The incident happened at a time when the media was focusing concern over on-line communication and a movie popularized by its use of violence. All this led to an intense discussion by the media of how the world of virtual reality is affecting violence in video games, movies, animation, and Internet. The news commentators were agreeing on "how we must explain to children the difference between virtual reality and reality."
The concern wasn't wrong, but it made me laugh. The commentator on TV was exactly like the commentator character from episode 1 in Paranoia Agent. I created the character imagining someone who didn't understand anything.
First of all the premise of separating "virtual reality" and "reality" and treating them independently, in my opinion, is a mistake. Originally the world of the "virtual" may have functioned to reflect "reality" but today the two have merged and it's difficult to determine which is the reflection of which. These days "reality" includes the "virtual."
I think the idea that "virtual reality" is the culprit of violent crimes is na‹ve and needs to be seriously reconsidered.
Whether it is a child or an adult, the desire for acting violently is innate. The desire to want complete control over others is a feeling that probably comes from the same place. Even if it's for a split second, the sharp feeling of "I want kill you!" is a feeling I think everyone has experienced. These are passing thoughts that can't be avoided.
But without the premise that all humans are inherently violent, it's no surprise we aren't able to teach our own children how to respond correctly when these violent feelings irrupt. For people who have not been taught how to respond properly, moving from anger to action is a direct path. A big reason for why the brakes fail when responding to an intense emotion of anger is due to such factors.
The socialized adult is able to control the intense feelings of acting on emotion through reason. It's possible to say that movies, animation, and video games exist as a form of release from feelings of violence that all of us have. To say that sports are the only healthy way to release stress is a form of discrimination.
We recognized while still in production that someone might try to copy "Little Slugger" and cause real harm to others. So even in the planning stages, we created a copycat character, who is in the end killed by the real "Little Slugger." In other words, the idea was to seal the sphere of influence of "Little Slugger" within the confines of the animation. I did this half jokingly but also half seriously.
GS: Your films are often labeled "psychological thrillers" and often have sequences that blur the line between reality and fantasy. Is this a deliberate attempt to create a storytelling style?
SK: I think blurring the lines of reality and fantasy is an interesting technique. Since using it in my debut piece Perfect Blue, many fans seem to enjoy it so now I deliberately choose to use it. I don't particularly use it thinking it's my signature style but I do think it plays a significant role. Besides the attitude of completely separating reality from fiction isn't a healthy way of living. In our reality, there are many layers, and while to others it may seem like a dream or fantasy, to someone else it might be noting less than the truth. My wish is to continue interpreting the world in this way and capture the multifaceted circumstances that affect people and their relationship to one another.
GS: Your films tend to avoid the "science fiction" style of giant robots or battles with magic that most anime tends toward. Why is that? Would you ever try a more science fiction-oriented story?
SK: I don't avoid the "science fiction" style, but I tend not to have an interest in the more "popular" subjects. If I were to do a "popular" film, it would just add to the long list of "popular" works that already exist and nothing more. There wouldn't be a need for making it. Of course, what I'd make would be different from somebody else's work, so if an interesting opportunity comes up, I might feel like trying it in the future.
I constantly strive to question the "commonly accepted norm". If my sense of values were of the "norm", then there would be no purpose in making works to show an audience. But since I have a different perspective, it gives meaning to making new works.
I like using ideas others in my field wouldn't even take notice of. I think Tokyo Godfathers is a good example of this. The inspiration for Tokyo Godfathers came from the idea of "finding a baby in a trash dumpster." "Trash" meaning ideas that others in my industry have considered trash. From this trash dumpster of ideas I retrieve what I consider fascinating. I think of it in this way.
GS: Why do you choose animation to tell your tales over filmmaking with live actors and sets? SK: From the beginning I didn't have a choice for my mode of expression, whether in theatre or film. My main method of expression is the "drawn image," like when I use Japanese to convey my ideas, I am used to using the drawn image to convey my ideas. I love to draw and drawings are my words.
I've not wanted to shoot live-action film, nor have I had an admiration for it. The same goes for theatrical plays. My favorite method of expression is animation. As an animator, animation is easy to control and use to express my ideas.
I haven't used live-action film as a technique so I'm not too confident about it. It's a method that would take quite a long time for me to master and time is of the essence. It's taken me these 40 years (I'm 40 now) just to get to this place in my drawing. I take pride in my drawing and I'm confident about my skills, and because I have these skills I make animation.
GS: I personally loved Tokyo Godfathers. Which of your own films is your favorite?
SK: The three theatrical releases and the one TV series Paranoia Agent that I've directed, have all been significant and important to me. I can't say which one is my favorite. To create Paranoia Agent, Tokyo Godfathers was necessary, and for Tokyo Godfathers to be born there needed to be a Millennium Actress before it. I don't take the works as separate pieces, but I value how the works have evolved the most.
However, Tokyo Godfathers achieved the highest level in terms of picture quality, and in that sense I like it the most out of the group.
GS: What do you think about current American animation?
SK: In all honesty, I can't say. I've not seen enough American animation to have an opinion about it. But it seems, most of American animation has withdrawn from 2D and moved to 3D animation. TV animation might be different but whether it is Disney or DreamWorks, it almost seems like they're not going to be making 2D animation anymore.
There's a leaning that less people resist 3D animation, and in America I think the 3D productions being released are more interesting story-wise (aside from it being 3D). But at the same time I see it being slightly problematic because if interesting animation using the 3D technique can be made, then there's no reason why 2D animation can't be equally interesting. This is because a great idea or story always has the potential to be great, regardless of how it's put into form.
A reason why 3D animation plays such a large role in America today is possibly due to the 2D animation's bloated production system having run into problems like massive production costs. But the fact that there are many people who support 3D animation simply shows the talent for creating new ideas is in the 3D animation world. Perhaps the money made available in 3D production has caused the talented to seek out 3D animation as well.
I myself intend to continue with 2D animation, but my interest in 3D animation is increasing. I think it's critically important to utilize new techniques. But because of the enormous amount of time it usually takes to make a new technique your own, I think it's also important to perfect your old technique and make as many works as possible by focusing your efforts.
Not considering the techniques of animation, but comparing American animation of DreamWorks or Disney to Japanese animation, there is a difference in focus. I think how we look at animation is considerably different. Even though both are animation, I think they are completely different from one another.
I hear that Japanese animation is said to be gaining attention in the American movie industry, but I don't think the works are being created with a Japanese sense of style or focus. I think the possibility of it ever happening is very slim. Conversely, it's doubtful that an animation of American taste will ever be made in Japan. The apparent distinctions come from the difference in cultural inspiration and influence.
GS: Have you seen any films lately that you found great? Any you're looking forward to?
SK: I've not seen many movies lately but Masaaki Yuasa's theatrical animation, Mind Game, was outstanding. The images were full of pictorial allure. I'm looking forward to its overseas release.
I haven't seen it yet but Director Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 has finally been released in Japan. I'm looking forward to seeing it.
GS: Can you tell us about your next project?
SK: I've just started to move on to a new theatrical animation. It's not an original work of mine, but based on a novel. It's based on the idea of "dreams". Other than that I can't even tell you its title. It's planned for release two years from now. I'm looking forward to it.
http://www.gamestar.com/11_04/pause/pause_disc_satoshikon.shtml
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